government power

[larry g]

this is an article off of the cnn web site. im curius to hear every ones opinion about it and why.


Judge orders couple not to have children
Saturday, May 8, 2004 Posted: 9:18 AM EDT (1318 GMT)

ROCHESTER, New York (AP) -- A couple has been ordered not to conceive any more children until the ones they already have are no longer in foster care.

A civil liberties advocate said the court ruling unsealed Friday was "blatantly unconstitutional."

Monroe County Family Court Judge Marilyn O'Connor ruled March 31 that both parents "should not have yet another child which must be cared for at public expense."

"The facts of this case and the reality of parenthood cry out for family planning education," she ruled. "This court believes the constitutional right to have children is overcome when society must bear the financial and everyday burden of care."

The judge is not forcing contraception on the couple nor is she requiring the mother to get an abortion should she become pregnant. The couple may choose to be sterilized at no cost to them, O'Connor ruled.

If the couple violates O'Connor's ruling, they could be jailed for contempt of court.

"I don't know of any precedent that would permit a judge to do this," Anna Schissel, staff attorney for the Reproductive Rights Project of the New York Civil Liberties Union, told the Democrat and Chronicle of Rochester. "And even if there were a precedent, it would be blatantly unconstitutional because it violates the United States Constitution and the New York Constitution."

Neither parent attended the proceeding or secured legal representation. The mother waived her right to a lawyer, and the father never showed up in court.

[JBOY]

BIG L YOU MESSED UP ALREADY YOU SHOULD HAVE CALLED THIS SITE POWER AND MONEY.

1. THE GOVT HAS THE POWER TO DECLARE CIGS ILLEGAL(BEING THEY KILL 10 MIL PEOPLE EVERY YEAR)BUT BECAUSE OF CORP. DONATIONS(BIG MONEY) THEY DONT.

2. NY SETTELED WITH TABACCO MAKERS A FEW YEARS AGO(REMEMBER WHEN CIGS WENT FROM $3 TO$4.25) TABACCO GIVES THE STATE $10BIL(ALL OF WHICH COMES FROM INCREASES IN THE PACKS WE BUY)BT NOW NY'ERS CAN NOT SUE THESE COMPANIES THAT SAY THEY ARE NOT KILLING US.

3. F**K THIS STATE , THIS GOVT, AND ALL THE WEALTHY F**KS WHO DONT GIVE A F**K ABOUT US THE LITTLE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THIS WORLD GO ROUND

[abisai]

Dave Buckley wants more people to stop having children. But that doesn't mean legislation is going to have any effect. Whenever you trod these allies there are the unforeseen contingencies.

Like: do we stop retarded people from conceiving? They cannot handle children and make burdens on society at large by so doing (note: retarded people can make a living but die at age as young as everyone here). What about if someone is a pyschotic personality type? What if they have AIDS? Great arguments can be made, but they are just that; arguments.

Here's the heart of it for me:
Do we stop convicts in prison from conceiving? They obvisouly cannot support any babies and would place a greater burden on society than if they all went without. But we don't stop them from impregnating women, actually we enable them to do this very thing. So, until then, any laws is gonna have to get shut down. I mean, let's not start with partial parenting when there is absolute non-parenting going on.

Chairman Mao for President

P.S. I think what Johnny meant was: "if systematic repurcussions are to be made they should address the problems of our nation's poor and disenfranchised, such as child care services and egalitarian education. The lack of these powerful - and relatively inexpensive - institutions fosters the very problems the powers in government ignore. Sending parents to jail costs everyone twice over as we then pay for parent and child, whereas daycare pays for only child and allows parents to advance their station in life. We can create further dissemination of the misconception of lower class Americans as incompetant or we can enable them to better the lives of themselves and consequently, their childen."
Dave Buckley for Campaign Manager, 100% Americans.

[Ken]

This sounds like a little bit of a set-up and I need more information but based on the little given, I say the judge is correct. If these people can't take care of their children, because they abuse them, don't care for them etc. and we the taxpayer have to care for them, then they are being completely irresponsible and shouldn't be allowed to procreate. The wife should have her uterus removed with a dirty hanger by three illiterate convicts and the guy should have his penis removed with a blender. If they can't pay for the medical care to treat their injuries suffered during the above mentioned procedures then I say let them bleed to death in the MTV studios.

[Rob G]

Ken is an absolute republican.
I here and now give up any hope of bringing into our dark democratic organization.

I agree they shoudl never have children.
I agree that many should never have children.
I have even thought from time to time that a couple should be liscensed to have a child.

But the problem here is do we want to give this sphere of influence over to the legislature. This is a long and dark road as dave buckley eluded. Were does it stop. I dont know. I look down this dark road and see people who are banned from procreating and thus there bloodlines end forever.

This is close one for me. But i am gonna say no, they cant tell people they cant have kids. As messed up as that sounds. I just aint willing to open up this can of worms. Once again I fall back on education. Education funding through the roof would fix this and many other problems. Lets take all these little basterd kids and educate the crap out of them thus enabling them with the tools to making better decisions. Its a cascading effect.

ROB GAULT for Opposition.. 1% of america for 100% Iraqis

[Rob G]

Oh yeah, Great thread larry, very thoight provoking.

[Ken]

OK guys, I admit, that even for me, my last posting on this thread was just a teeny, tiny, little bit extreme. But please understand my position before I go on. I am a teacher. I became a teacher because I genuinely like children. They are cool little people who can always use a helping hand from an understanding adult. I also work in one of the worst ghetto's in the country. I see these poor children every day and their fuked up, crazy, uncaring, preoccupied, selfish, uneducated, no prospects, no ambition, hip-hop parents. The only time these parents actually care about their kids is when their kids have to fight someone, then it's WATCH OUT, I gotta school my kid in the ways of DA HOOD! Forget about schooling their kids in the ways of EDUCATION! Or WORK ETHIC! Or ambition, or right and wrong or the law, or morals, or religion, or courtesy or......the list goes on and on.

So maybe you can see why I had my previous reaction. It really is just frustration. I hope and pray all my students become successful out in the world.

I have thought about this and I have had similar ideas to Robs; a license to have children is a possibility, that maybe before you have children you should have to pass certain criteria, etc but this is just plain wrong. We have the freedom in this country to bear children under any circumstances, even children having children. It's one of those inalienable rights, like owning your own home, land or property. I don't advocate taking this right away from people, even the people I deal with every day, although the thought crosses my mind about 20 times a day.

But a valid point has to be made in regards of US, the average John Q. Taxpayer, having to pay for these kids, which is Lar's original example. I implicitly know and understand how much of a burden children are, how much sacrifice is required to bring my children up right, to be decent people, never mind productive, self-sustaining adults. Therefore, I will not enter into parenthood lightly and unprepared, so why should I have to be responsible for those who screw it up? Those who have children from unprotected sex, those who have children for revenge, those who have children because of their BIOLOGICAL CLOCKS ticking louder and louder and having them because they have to use the uterus or lose it, those who have children to hold onto a failing and dysfunctional relationship?

The answer, I shouldn't have to pay for them, or be responsible for them. I'm having enough trouble filling my gas tank these days to go to work.

What's the answer? Rob says education. I agree. Now, how do we educate these people? How do we get them to show up for class? These people cut four years of high school. Do we force them? If we did I guarantee you that somebody would start a thread here about whether it's right for the governmnet to force economically challenged minorities in impoverished neighborhoods to go to "Proper Reproduction Training."

So we have the typical Democratic conundrum. An expensive social program that just won't work and still costs me, John Q. Taxpayer, a lot of dough I just don't have because I can't afford gas.

Damn.

[abisai]

See Ken that's why I went for Team Kerry a while back: I see you post is as big as mine. haha

I think we're all in agreement many people should not have children. The question is whether we can legislate that. Seems impossible. Follow-up is whether we can prevent it other ways. Education brought up as an option.

BUT WHAT ABOUT DEPORTATION? Evict everyone with more than two children, that'll learn us. haha. Ken I really want to get at you on this, but in the best interests of Team Bush I am sitting out for the remainder only to hop in with annoying jokes that porbably only make me laugh. Four more Beers! Four more beers!

[Rob G]

I say get all these kids and put im' in a room with Ken. But dont tie kens hands. Just lock the door and ken wont let them out till they educated. Yeah baby.

Kens right, even if we did have the best schools ever they could still simply not go.

But I offer this as an incentive. Parents get more Tax return and welfare benefits if child attends school. That will get him in the class.

[Ken]

I certainly don't want to legislate laws regarding having children, it's kind of mideval.

Education is always a useful alternative, I wouldn't have gotten into the field if I didn't believe that, but as Rob and I have questioned, how do we get these people to where the education is AND be serious about it. Incentives are useful, but what incentives? They should be fair to everybody; those who already know "Proper Reproductive Training," such as myself, and those who need it. Tax incentives are probably the best way, but man, how complicated can that get? Best left up to smarter people than myself.

Think about this: if we are having problems coming to terms about reproduction restrictions, how must the Chinese feel?

[abisai]

Funny anecdote: my father taught a long time. Supposedly he had a strategy of walking out on the class when they acted up. Likewise, I have seen him stare at them silently & ominously until they shut up. Tactics are great, if you have kids who respect you. Of course, he had exceptions.. I am envisioning him walking out the room and Ken walking in at the same time with his beating stick slung over his shoulder... I digress.

Education works, but as a strategy will not help people who cannot see the benefits. Namely, the uneducated. Do they birth as uneducatedly inclined (take them sparsed words) or learn that? Either way, no difference, education in itself is a benefit, not a motivator.

Tax returns might be good. I can see that working logistically and realistically. But I think it would benefit people who can think that far ahead, but I doubt that will reduce the incidents. Welfare implications? Bah! Those people already gave up, what do they care?

Chinamen get abortions like crazy (I seriously wonder how long before that leads to human fetus exportation if not already, think about thema apples). That works I guess. Not American, as said before. In a way Bill Clinton lead the oral sex revolution as people think that is OK for otherwise virgins to do as young people. You can't get a chick pregnant eating ass anyway you slice it. The oral sex revolution works, but that is a nasty ass policy I dare say.

Sexist conclusion: I personsally hold all women personally responisble for (non-rape) pregnancies. Eliminate child custody laws, you get pregnant you deal with it bitch. In a way, that is more American, I don't understand why us screwing means I owe you money every month for 18 years. Especially after bars, concerts, and other places where people make less than perfect decisions. Women hold the key and can stop themselves better than men can. Plus, no matter how I try, I could never know if my wife was really taking birth control pills or Flintstone chewables. SO men have no power. The Dave Buckley Plan: woman getting federal lessons in sucking cock and elimination of their right to sue you for money if they get pregnant.

[Rob G]

Dave said:

Funny anecdote: my father taught a long time. Supposedly he had a strategy of walking out on the class when they acted up. Likewise, I have seen him stare at them silently & ominously until they shut up. Tactics are great, if you have kids who respect you. Of course, he had exceptions.. I am envisioning him walking out the room and Ken walking in at the same time with his beating stick slung over his shoulder... I digress.

Education works, but as a strategy will not help people who cannot see the benefits. Namely, the uneducated. Do they birth as uneducatedly inclined (take them sparsed words) or learn that? Either way, no difference, education in itself is a benefit, not a motivator.

Tax returns might be good. I can see that working logistically and realistically. But I think it would benefit people who can think that far ahead, but I doubt that will reduce the incidents. Welfare implications? Bah! Those people already gave up, what do they care?

Chinamen get abortions like crazy (I seriously wonder how long before that leads to human fetus exportation if not already, think about thema apples). That works I guess. Not American, as said before. In a way Bill Clinton lead the oral sex revolution as people think that is OK for otherwise virgins to do as young people. You can't get a chick pregnant eating ass anyway you slice it. The oral sex revolution works, but that is a nasty ass policy I dare say.

Sexist conclusion: I personsally hold all women personally responisble for (non-rape) pregnancies. Eliminate child custody laws, you get pregnant you deal with it pregnant dog. In a way, that is more American, I don't understand why us screwing means I owe you money every month for 18 years. Especially after bars, concerts, and other places where people make less than perfect decisions. Women hold the key and can stop themselves better than men can. Plus, no matter how I try, I could never know if my wife was really taking birth control pills or Flintstone chewables. SO men have no power. The Dave Buckley Plan: woman getting federal lessons in sucking thingy and elimination of their right to sue you for money if they get pregnant.

I would like to denounce my candidacy and now vote for DKB.
Sounds good to me.

Ken brought up a good poitn about china. I am preatty sure your only aloud to have 2 kids there and they will kill the 3rd one. And i think everybody wants male kids so they will kill their own if it is a daughter. NICE.

Funny, orientals as whole have no appreciation for human life. But even they aint as bad as the arabs.
ARABS SUCK.

[larry g]

i would like to thank everyone for thier comments on this subject. i personaly think if you already have children on welfare then you should not be all0owed to have any more children. bill clinton started all this with his welfare reform , which was a good start but we are not done yet. he who pays the piper names the tune. up until bill clinton you had welfare mothers having upwards of 10 children over the course of thier live and guess what when thier children hit 15 or 16 they would start having children. bill clinton put an end to that but many of these people are still finding holes in the system and it needs to stop. i dont think every one should have to have a licence to have children , just if you need some else to pay for tyhem.

its kinda wierd it took a democrat to fix this problem , just like it will take a democrat to fix the problem in iraq.

[Darth Deucedropper]

I am back on at work awesome!!!! Well anytime you let government interfere with the pursuit of life life liberty and the pursuit of happiness you are asking for trouble. There are far too many government regulations now let alone a precedent such as this. Whats next old people should be killed cause I pay for their social security or maybe treatment should be refused to people at hospitals because I pay their bills? I think not!!!!

[abisai]

Guest-larry said:

its kinda wierd it took a democrat to fix this problem , just like it will take a democrat to fix the problem in iraq.

I shake my head at you in disbelief.