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Post by abisai on May 9, 2005 9:39:25 GMT -5
I am not mad and angry white man, in case it comes off that way. I do think that it is in our best long term interests to address this issue now. I was thinking about immigration over the weekend, since we are all immigrants. The thing is that the rushes of immigration in the past was to fill the east coast in the 18th century, expansion westward in the 19th century, and the industrial explosion of the first half of the 20th century. Since then, there is nothing to fill. There is not land development westward or labor needs. The growth we experience in later 20th century was high technology and computers, which did not create jobs and have been sent overseas to India and other places. Recent trends see manufacturing and high tech jobs moved to other nations and corporate headquartes moving offshore. Nothing is wrong with any of that, but in order to sustain living here we have to take steps to keep up the commercial market here. I think that continuing to allow low-skilled workers in does not add to the economy and deflates lower class wages. We need a healthy middle class and higher wages on the lower end of the spectrum would help this go a lot further than a tax break ever could. Raise the minimum wage and uphold it for all workers. Regardless of legal status. But they don't do that and there is no legal basis. So I say keep immigration down to stop the labor pool from competing against itself. We have reached the point where there is a real need for an international labor union willing to take strides together. Unfortunately, Marx is dead and his ideas are too. I am not angry at anyone for being hungry, I am suggesting that the current course of action leads to unsatiable hunger when we could take steps to assure happy and fat Americans in this nation as well as happy and fat people in Mexico and Canada. Intelligent workers in Mexico now realize their potential in the US and become Americans over the generations, sapping the best from their nation. This is a historical strength from our nation, but I feel like at present we put these immigrants in low-skilled jobs with no growth potential and assured poverty. They can't buy land, they can't run businesses, they can only remain dependent upon employers willing to exploit them. And we as a nation accept this because we tell ourselves they are hard workers doing jobs that we don't want to do. If there comes a point in time where there is a massive explotion of labor needs, things could be different. But they are not and I don't think we need to add workers at a time when we are not adding jobs.
As for accepting a lesser international dominance, we should. There is a great vehicle for this already, but the United Nations gets crapped on repeatedly by our politicians. Instead of addressing what is wrong with it, they address what is wrong about ceding any power to it. Without our involvement there, it has nothing to hold either side from exploring further cold wars should US relations with the EU, China, or somone else get away from normalcy. I don't give a crap who has a nuclear warhead, we have 100 to 1000 for every 1 they have and they know it. They could take devastating strikes, we could literally obliterate countries. Until a nuclear power is invaded, I would expect all third world nations to pursue nuclear weaponry for the sake of the examples already set. North Korea is unaffected. Iran is unaffected. Pakistan is unaffected. India is unaffected. We are their model and we have done nothing to stop them from following in our footsteps, which is to develop massive amounts of weaponry and refuse to stop making it for the sake of national defense.
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Post by abisai on May 9, 2005 9:49:28 GMT -5
I just had a thought: it is not improbable that Iraq ends up deciding to develop nuclear weaponry. In fact, I would think it probable that they would try, just a matter of when. Of course they would have to have their soverignty and national order restored, but what beyond that would prevent them from seeking their own national defenses? We already tought Iran as a nuclear power, shouldn't they use that same fear? They already fear the nuclear power of the Israelis. Then there are the Pakistanis wielding nukes too. Why should their people fear them without assuring their own national defenses? What a clusterfuck, I hate nukes.
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Post by Ken on May 9, 2005 15:36:43 GMT -5
There has been a lot said about that $6/hour job. Let's not forget who those jobs traditionally went to, a specific population...teen-agers. Yes, $6/hr jobs traditionally would be the provence of teen-agers. Now these jobs are being occupied by immigrants ecstatic to make $6/hr because, as someone so aptly put here previously, they come from shit, and $6/hr. is certainly better than eating a shit pie every night for dinner. Not to mention, these immigrants all live in one room together or in a one-room Hilton fire-trap somewhere so their expenses are low too, so they can survive just fine enough to order Dish Network. Now however, even teen-agers don't want these jobs because they see that the lowly immigrants are taking them, which just perpetuates the Spoiled American Syndrome, which presents its own problems, such as teeni-boppers driving around in BMW's and Mercedes because mommy and daddy don't want their kids earning an honest days pay by working an "IMMIGRANT JOB!" Honestly, I really have no problems with Mexicans who come here to work. I truly respect people who want to work and work hard to get ahead. However, I can't stand that the money doesn't get reintroduced into our own economy, but finds it's way back to Mexico. Will these enterprising Mexicans continue to stay here in America or will they build up a huge nest egg and then go back to beautiful Acalapulco and start their own business? One fellow I knew was working towards just that. I'm sure he's back in sunny Acalapulco right now. The inherent problem is that Mexico is as corrupt as a Bronx politician. The cops are on the take, the government is on the take and hardly any strides have been made that I am aware of. Their new president was supposed to be this great reformer yet ever more larger and larger herds of Mexicans cross the border every day. Solution: put an arm of the National Guard on the border of Mexico. Put a few Army desert warfare/tank training facilities/bases on the border and have them split some time guarding the border. OR Every American should just move into Mexico, commandeer a house and start up our country over there. We'll export every Mexicano over the border and they can just stay there and be nice and happy while we build up Mexico into the new America. ;D ;D
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Post by ROb G on May 11, 2005 21:33:21 GMT -5
Its possible the mexican istuation might be one of those situations were the solution costs more then the problems. Like department stroes that dont have countermeasures against theft because such countermeasures cost them more then they lose in theft.
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Post by abisai on May 15, 2005 10:01:40 GMT -5
Time magazine stat blurp indicates Hispanic employment increased, but wages actually decreased from 2002 to 2004. Good point about these jobs being formely held by pimply teens. I think though that more of these incoming workers are doing manual labor like gardening, landscaping, and farming. Those are jobs that young Americans used to perform and I believe no longer perform as the wages are not high enough to stop them from getting wages at same level doing easier work. So the rippling effect is those guys compete with other people who used to be janitors without as much competition from farmhands for example. No job has a value in and of itself. Economics work backwards too, which is how garbagemen get paid a lot of money for doing what is easy work that few people will accept. Labor is not cheap in China because they are stupid, it is because there are a billion fucking people there competing for the same jobs. We should avoid creating those scenarios here, which would only benefit large corporations that are not nationally bound and of course Daddy Warbucks and his cronies.
A few easy steps could be made to decrease immigration. One would be to simply enforce the laws on the books and penalize the employers that make use of the cheap labor. My dad's friend in NY has a business mowing lawns and complains that he cannot find legal workers to do it, when he is offering less than McDonald's salaries and charging rich people whatever he wants to basically for doing the work that these rich people don't even understand. There's thousands of these guys in every state and they have no fear of being caught at present and there was literally a three year amnesty program passed to encourage their practices. More than a blind eye, the government winked and nudged people to not only continue to employ illegals, but to pretend like it is legal. Another step would be enforce minimum wages across the board for all workers everywhere and extend employee rights to the illegals that the legals receive. All that workman's comp, everything. Basically this would reduce the incentive to give these guys the shaft and increase their power in the situation, which decreases the advantages employers receive by skirting the law. The risk of getting caught increases by the fact the illegals could report their employers and use that as leverage to attain a working wage. The employers would know that firing their workers would lead to them being reported, instead of merely having the power to report the illegal status of the individual. This measure would be very cost-effective in that it would get the workers to police the employers. Legalize marijuana. This traffic has more to do with the undercover operations that I think we would care to know. The drug itself is no more harmful than alcohol and can be monitored as such. Clearly the illegal status of the drug is not preventing its usage here and the farmers here fear being caught and largely avoid growing the crop. So this creates and entire network engine for fueling and undercover operation across the border. This increases traffic along the borders and provides communication lines to people pursuing illegal operations of easy cash, which importation is an easy take. Plus it weighs down the border partol with the extra traffic. Not just the large trucks, also the people that go to Mexico for shit they cannot find here. This includes legal drugs, steroids, and prostitutes, but clearly marijuana is a larger draw than all those combined and has less a down side than rampant steroids, prostution, and drugs that are not made by the manufacturers sold as such on the market. Something else we could do is to have unions of the US join unions of Mexico and Canad to forge a NAFTA market worker's rights collatition since it would benefit all parties involved. We benefit from them having the same rights in that it removes part of the incentive to remove factories here and place them elsewhere, and they of course benefit from having better working conditions. This is the least likely to occur since people have lost faith in the power of unions, despite everything that unions have done for this country.
In a another news item, Mexican President Fox said that hard working Mexicans are doing jobs in America "that not even the blacks will do" which was a news items regardless of whatever he was talking about. Literally the guy talks about this issue and it is ignored if not for the fact that he makes a racially charged remark and then the story is the remark not anything about his message.
Here is the story per Reuters (http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050514/2005-05-14T032909Z_01_N13376712_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-MEXICO-USA-DC.html): Mexican President Vicente Fox called recent U.S. measures to stem illegal immigration a step back for bilateral relations on Friday and said Mexican migrants do jobs "that not even blacks want to do."
In comments likely to raise the temperature of the immigration debate, Fox defended the role of undocumented Mexican workers in the United States to a group of Texas business people meeting in Mexico.
"There is no doubt that Mexicans, filled with dignity, willingness and ability to work are doing jobs that not even blacks want to do there in the United States," he said in a speech broadcast in part on local radio and reported on newspaper web sites.
Fox said recent, tougher measures against immigrants do not represent "the road we should be building between friends and partners."
Mexico has been seeking an accord with Washington for years to make it easier for millions of illegal Mexican immigrants to live and work in the United States. The country expects to repatriate this year more than 250,000 foreigners, mostly Central Americans headed for the U.S. border.
Mexican hopes were raised early last year when President Bush proposed a temporary worker program but it has become bogged down in Congress.
A key partner in U.S. border security, Mexico is upset at new U.S. controls on foreign-born people, including tougher rules to obtain drivers' licenses.
Congressional Republicans attached the immigration changes to legislation providing $82 billion in emergency funds for fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bush is expected to sign the legislation into law soon.
The law, approved unanimously by the Senate on Tuesday, waives environmental rules to allow the extension of a fence on the border between California and Mexico to stop illegal immigrants. Mexico calls the measure "overly extreme."
But Fox said he was encouraged by a bill put forward on Thursday by Sens. John McCain, an Arizona Republican, and Edward Kennedy, a Massachusetts Democrat, to allow some of the estimated 10 to 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States to get legal jobs and eventual citizenship.
"I hope President Bush will support and push the initiative, as he has publicly agreed. I have to take his word and hope he delivers," Fox said.
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Post by abisai on May 15, 2005 10:04:51 GMT -5
Sounds a little like President Fox is using illegal immigration to the US as a source of tourist dollars for the people passing through and the people coming to recruit the workers. Notice that the guy is not at all addressing the fact that his people literally die crossing the hot desert borders. He is doing nothing and speaking in our nation. So we have to act like this is our principality and address the fact that he is shooting his nation in the foot and allowing this to occur (competent people leave Mexico, incompetent people remain there). To me this is a huge lose-lose scenario.
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Post by abisai on May 24, 2005 9:51:48 GMT -5
Korean president ILL was listening to his favorite Eric B and Rakim tape for the thousandth time and repeated to himself afterwards the refrain "I ain't no joke" when a thought occured. Time to make a public announcement to let the world know I ain't no joke.
Official statement: "The United States should be aware that the choice of a pre-emptive attack is not only theirs, to stand against force with force is our unswerving method of response."
They claim their pursuit of proper nukes is as a nuclear deterrent to prevent American aggression. There was a statement from China that was "like, I don't him man, don't ask me 'bout that" distancing them from North Korea. Late President ILL brought out his cardboard box and got cold fresh with some head spins.
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Post by Ringleader1 on May 25, 2005 3:45:24 GMT -5
Yeah, leagalise weed...yeah. I had a point but I can't remember..yeah...sweet....I droped a bomb..in my shorts...yeah
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Post by larry g on Jun 4, 2005 17:55:42 GMT -5
i saw a great bumper sticker the other day ,it said "frodo failed, bush got the ring"
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Post by Ringleader1 on Jun 5, 2005 4:21:20 GMT -5
Yeah, my nuts. ;D, in his mouth....
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Post by larry g on Jun 6, 2005 5:08:51 GMT -5
good one ring
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Post by Ringleader1 on Jun 7, 2005 18:40:43 GMT -5
I Hvae been thinking about what you guys were saying about labor and thought that I would expand on my point. I once read in one of my many textbooks that countries go through a series stages of economic growth simply=agricultural,industrial(low tech), production of high tech, lastly services(banking, finacial, investing, planning). We of course are a service industry heavy. We also have elements of high tech production(on the downside with jobs going to India, China), we also have the strongest agricultural bases of any country. I am bias as I grew up in Nebraska. Low tech jobs are mostly gone and low wage jobs are going to immigrants (your valid concern). My point is..the countries that these immigrants come from and the countries our hightech jobs are going to are progressing through the economic groth stages at a rapid rate and soon (20-30 years it will no longer be benificial to out-source the jobs to those countries as their wages catch up to their production. Also, those immigrants that hold low paying jobs will decrease, I have talk to some and they would rather live in Mexico but the money is here. Example-Japan had an advatage in production through the 70-80's due to the fact that their wages were lower than thier production level. Which in turn let them sell lower price high quality products and secure an above average portion of the market. However, as Japan's wages caught up to their production thier advantages decreased. The average Japanese worker today makes more than his U.S. counterpart. South Korea is almost there. The Asian Tigers (China, Indonesia, Singapore ect) are progressing very rapidly; even faster than Japan did. Sometimes doubling thier G.D.P in a year! China and India hold an advantage in low wages now so that is where production go's. Supply and Demand. Eventually that advantage will go away like it did with Japan. Also setting up businesses in other countries intails allot of risk. Often, low education, language and cultural defferences make it less attractive. The same will happen to Mexico in time, though slower because it so hot there . We are the blueprint, us and other counties that made it. Thats why these up and comers are moving so fast. Allas my patience is dwindling as this sh*t is abit dry. I know I miss some stuff as this is from the dome but I think I am on the right track. So don't distress, mi amigos, Arribaaaa! Selma Hyack is hot.....P.s. I now have Optimum online at my crib and that's why my post is more than two sentences...yeah me welcome to 2005. Go Pistons and boo to the Yanks. I can't wait to football season..
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Post by Ken on Jun 8, 2005 5:27:28 GMT -5
I have also read about the stages of production and Ring is correct but recently I have seen another stage added, one based on the current evolution in America, the Information Stage. Because of the growth of the Internet and the computer industry, some say that Information is the next stage in the evolution of production. I'm not so convinced. I just think they added that because the United States is going trough that stage now, but is it a natural evolution for all countries? Only time will tell.
The real challenge for this country is to resist these natural forces of supply and demand. Moving entire divisions of labor to countries where it is cheaper to manufacture due to low wages may be cost productive but doesn't help employment back home.
I almost feel like a Communist saying that.
I know this is a tall order, going against the natural order of things, but it should always be in our best interests to take care of the American worker. However, I like shopping at Walmart and buying DVD's for $14 while Target sells them for $17, or Blockbuster for $30. So maybe I'm full of shit.
The interesting thing is the evolution of the world economy. If every country is growing, and wages will eventually catch up, will there one day be parity across nations? Will there one day be a world union, with a world minimum wage?
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Post by Ringleader1 on Jun 8, 2005 6:00:34 GMT -5
No, each country will have it's own comparative advantage and hopefully produce what is most profitable and efficient. I believe that as one of the world most innovative countries we will supplement our economy to compensate for our loss in production. We made it through when Japan hit our automotive Industry and electronics Industries simultaneously. As the world standard of living increases the advantage will go to the innovators, hopefully us. (at work)
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Post by Ken on Jun 8, 2005 6:14:36 GMT -5
It's interesting because you mentioned two things in that last post that I think are very important, innovation and the automotive industry. Two of our "Big Three" car companies are having problems with innovation and are losing profits to foreign car makers because of foreign innovation. GM and Ford are hemmorgging money, so much so that GM is now offering the employee discount to anybody who walks off the street to buy a GM car.
I just posted on the football thread about my disappointment with the failure of Pataki and Bloomberg to get the stadium deal done. I am also just as disappointed in the direction these car companies are going. With few exceptions, there really isn't anything inspiring in today's American car market. Where are the innovators we need? Who is making these important decisions to make one car line look like every other car line? Where is American boldness?
Maybe these setbacks need to happen for America to find it's competitive/comparative advantage.
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