NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT

[abisai]

This is national election year and before 9/11 GW was planning on being the "education president" instead of the "wartime president". This Act being one of his campaign promises and flagship presidential actions, I wondered what the crowd reaction was among our radically opposed collective.

[larry g]

i know little or no facts on this , but i will start my search for info. what i do know is this origionaly this was supported but ted kennedy(super liberal), he was actualy at the signing. but since its conseption many democrats have said its a total farse . i cant remember her name but the black chic that ran for president said ,it has hurt our education system dramaticly, whatever that means. ill have to get back to you on that one though.

vote socialist labor (power to the people)

[Rob G]

I selected the first option but in general i feel the no child left behind act is overall good. Not great but its an attempt. The act gets demonised case it does leave some kids behind. The thing is no act proetcts everybody. Theres always those who fall through the system. Perhaps people would like it better if it were called "Not many children left behind".

I love the climate the partisan wars of this country creates whereby each party demonises the other in everything they do even when its something actually helps people. And the best part is both parties are willing to pay more money and time in shooting something down then holding something up.

[Ken]

Whoa. I haven't been here for a week because work has been crazy and BAM! there's a work related thread on the Message Board. It must be some sort of sign. I just can't escape.

No Child Left Behind is a grand idea and it certainly has its place, however, this legislation doesn't and can't work in the climate and atmosphere of the NYC school system, which happens to be one of the largest in the country. Why you ask?

1. No Child Left Behind requires that a total commitment be made to children from teachers, parents and administration (I define admin. as the Board of Ed., principals, asst. prin., Regional Offices, Supt. Indendants) as well as gov't.

There is not a total commitment made by everybody involved. NY State owes NYC education services (Board of Ed) BILLIONS of dollars that they continually find excuses not to give us, even after coutrs have ruled that NY State must pay up.

2. Parents have almost zero support of their own children. Parents ignorantly believe that their children can learn everything they need to learn in life while their children are in the school building, that teachers have a lot of fancy "teacher tricks" that will somehow keep all the information in their heads without homework or studying, or doing any extra work at home.

2a. Parents are constantly looking for a reason to sue the Board of Ed and thus they constantly scrutinize every move by their child's teacher for the slightest hint of improper behavior. In my two years of teaching I have seen at least eight teachers removed from their classrooms for "improper behavior" that really wasn't improper, or phantom behavior that the kids insisted happened but never did. For instance, a teacher broke up a particularly nasty fight between two students, and the teacher was subsequently removed because one of the students said that he was injured by the teacher while breaking up the fight. Never mind one kid was smashing the other kids head into a wall.

3. Administration/Gov't. There has been a new cirriculum introduced this year that has been a nightmare. Why? Because nobody knows how it works because nobody has trained us properly. Before something citywide is introduced, plan for it, train properly for it, give us the materials we need for it.

We need books for the new reading program. We have not received them because there aren't enough to go around. As a result, we have just a few copies in the school that we have to xerox like crazy. Teachers spend hours xeroxing only to get yelled at for using up so much paper.

4. Room/Space. Literally, every ounce of space in the building is being used up and we need more space. The problem is, where does NYC get the space needed in an overcrowded city? It's not like you can just expand the building or build another one next door. Classes are too large and as a result behavior gets off the wall, but you can't raise your voice or give out punishment assignments because that's grounds for Corporal Punishment which is grounds for disciplinary action and of course, lawsuit.

5. Behavior. It's terrible. Every class has it's share of disciplinary problems but with overcrowding its getting constantly worse.

6. Support. As a teacher you need to be able to expect a minimum of support form the administration in the school. That support is becoming more and more non-existent due to overcrowding forcing admins. to focus more and more on outside problems.

As a result I am initializing legislation for No Teacher Left Behind, because that's whats happening to many of us. Make no mistake my friends, the only people who truly care about these kids are the teachers, not the lawmakers, not the legislators, not the admins., sometimes not even the parents. Teachers are the ones who spend all day with these kids, listen to their problems, help them, speak to them, get attached to them, spend their hard-earned money on them (yes I have spent at least $1000 dollars so far in terms of materials, food and fun this year alone.) Why, because regardless of everything, I genuinely like these friggin' kids.

In essence, the system is too jumbled, disenfranchised, broke, crowded, tired, mad, angry, sad, frustrated, confused, and riddled with politicians.

[abisai]

The discord between teachers and adminstration goes deep and far and touches most things within the schools. Foremost in my mind is the NYS testing standards created by people like me: college-educated, 0% teaching experience. ZERO XP as a teacher, but they got to decide what the teachers should teach. Not No Child Left Behind, just NYS stuff, but what I will rant about primarily.

I would like to begin a chorus of boos I am sure my upstate NY friends would join in on: BOO NYC, yeah upstate. Yup, that about summizes that argument. Which, by the way, has decades under its belt. NYC sues for money, upstate does not pay, politicians win either way. These are not even facts anymore, just drama. I also openly question whether administrations use this sort of thing to oppose union demands for pay increases as diversionary tactics. I'll toss out the Beacon School District example. The administration gave raises one summer. Overdue for years and heavily negotiated with the union. Then they discover the bookeeper they hired left with massive missing funds. Like 6 or possibly 7 digits missing. The full loss was never to be known because by definition this guy was the sole one to know and they had no interest in learning their incompetence at managing the budget. Their response was to demand teachers give back salary to pay for the losses and blame them when they had to make cuts. Bear in mind they publish teachers salaries in the paper and my father was on the top-side of the list as a veteran in the field. It was lunacy, but my point is that they administration took 0% responsibility and blamed everything on someone else, in this case the teachers' union.

I actually feel this way about this Act and anything like it. Administrators in education have it pretty damn easy and get paid big bucks to smile, so I say they should be able to take the heat too. But they don't, they pass the BUCK often and without any negative effects landing in their lap. I see this Act as basically saying "you're school is bad" and the reaction by administrators being to point their fingers back and blame someone else higher up for a school's shortcomings. I actually have a long-term optimism that this Act does make some suffer in the short-term to see a long-term revival of education reforms, where they do things like rebuild schools and start over in some areas (go Beacon High). The space shortages are real and the materials shortages are real. Maybe this will demonstrate that and bring out the CCC again, creating more jobs.

For the record, I vote Good Theory, Bad Admins. Also, this was basically the brain child of Ted Kennedy and he sponsored the damn thing and practically gave GW a handjob for furthering his political goals of being linked to education. Now he gets to claim he doesn't like it and defers all blame to someone else, in this case the president. Disclaimer: my father began teaching after returning from Vietnam and had to stop working his first year because they went on strike. This began the legend of Mr. Buckley and he went on to become well-respected dude by all. He has many great things to say about education, but lacked a degree in adminsitration and never made that leap. He was basically invited to leave repeatedly for being a top-earner, regardless of his teaching ability or his effect on others' teaching ability. I see that experience as evidence that as the only reward structure in place being one of monetary value, there should be something done to tie rewards to educational performance. And yes, I perform well on tests, so I am biased to thinking they work overall.

[larry g]

i spend 4 hours last night trying to find something on this on the internet, i was unsuccesful. i could not find a single credible source denouncing it but what ken says does sound right to me. the thing it these super slum schools are not the norm and need to be taken as special cases. im not sure about what im about to say ,from what ive read it sounds to me like thier is a school voucher plan hidden in thier somewere. school vouchers is a whole other topic though . i do think as of now im learning towards being in favor of nclb but i really need more info.

[Ken]

No Child Left Behind is actually a very good idea, unfortunately there just isn't enough money to buy the supplies, hire the teachers, build the new spaces, space for the new spaces to build, or dedicated administration officials to oversee that things get done right.

I'm speaking only for NYC, not the rest of the country. But don't forget how large the NYC education system really is, it's by far NOT the best, but one of the largest, if not the largest.

I applaud the effort. The effort should be undertaken even if it fails, because we may learn a lot from the failure, or miniscule successes.

[abisai]

Hurray for a civil conversation. I would lke to thank all the citizens for their diplomacy. Everyone earns 1,000 XP and one item form the DMG. ;D

[larry g]

this was kinda weird . we pretty much agree its a good thing but on the other hand i know almost nothing about it. give me time, i might find something wrong with it.

[Ken]

Here's something little known or discussed by the public at large. NYC can't keep it's teachers. One in three teachers leaves NYC after two years. ONE IN THREE. Contrary to popular, misguided belief, its not because of the pay. It's because of the conditions. The children have no discipline, the administration doesn't help, the parents don't help (they look to sue), the gov't doesn't help, so teachers literally lose their minds and have to leave (quit the profession) to retain their sanity.

Now, why is this important? Because every year the city has this HUGE influx of new teachers, thousands. These are people fresh out of college, teacher training school or older people who want to contribute and have gone through special programs. The point is that they have NO EXPERIENCE. These people, like myself, are just trying to keep our heads above water, trying to survive the day, with no help. We are literally thrown to the wolves.

Now, knowing this, is it really fair to tie PAY TO PERFORMANCE?

The older, experienced teachers, transfer to the last few good schools in the city. Why should, or would they, want to continue to teach in the ghettos? They put in their time, paid their dues.

The really old ones, who have 20 years in the system are persuaded to retire, so they are lost as a resource. That leaves those teachers who havve been in the system for a few years and guess what? They're way too busy going back to night school to get their Masters Degrees. You think they have time to go to work, teach all day, go to college at night, then grade homework, papers, etc. and then do their college homework? And most of these people have FAMILIES and LIVES outside of school.

So, once again, knowing this, is it fair to tie pay into performance knowing that all us new teachers are at a total disadvantage? NO, IT IS NOT. In fact, it's all propganda to take the public's eye off the administrations and put it squarely on the teachers, as if teacher's don't give enough of themselves, or deserve to get paid, or deserve to have a life outside of school.

If you want to know why kids are performing so poorly these days, just remember, ONE IN THREE and ask yourselves WHY?

[JBOY]

NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND IS A GREAT FOUNDATION BUT AS IS, CANT HOLD A SOLID STRUCTURE.

I PICK UP MY NEPHEW EVERYDAY AT SOUTH AVE AND THEN GET TYLER AT SARGENT. THEY ARE BOTH SMART BUT TYLER LACKS WAY BEHIND COMPARED TO MY WIFES NEICE IN MARYLAND WHO IS A GRADE BEHIND HIM.

MY POINT IS IT'S GREAT TO GET EVERY CHILD THROUGH SCHOOL(BEING WE USE A GRADE 7,8,9 EDUCATION EVERYDAY IN LIFE) BUT IT IS EVERY ONES JOB TO SEE THEM THROUGH.

TEACHERS WHO ARE THERE TO HELP AND GUIDE(NOT JUST THERE FOR A CHECK) ADMINISTATORS WHO REMEMBER HOW THOUGH I WAS TO BE A STUGGLING SCHOOL KID, POLITICIANS THAT ARE NOT SKIMMING THE MONEY FOR THESE KIDS EDU.

IT ONLY MAKES SENSE TO GIVE MORE TO SRUGGLING SCHOOLS BUT IF THEY CONTINUE TO FAIL SHUT THEM DOWN.

[larry g]

ive been thinking about this and heres one possible dqanger that ive thought of. schools are rated by the average scores of thier students. if the average grade of the children is below a sertain nuber for three years in arow they get no money or something like that. i could forsee schools expelling kids who were not as smart or learning disabled because they were bringing the average down , so in fact thier would be many children left behind. but in fact i really have no iedea what im talking about.

[abisai]

Actually Larry, spot on. Those are the allegations for what schools did in Texas to advance within the rules at play and what they claim happens out there now en masse. I think part of it means calling them basically retarded or others ways to dismiss their scores as not representative. I say if they can spend the money to test they can include easy measures to monitor this - like drop-out rate, but supposedly that is not the case? And yes, this part of the conversation goes places I have no idea about and we would need the insider perspective. IF ONLY THERE WAS A TEACHER WHO COULD RESPOND HERE>

[Ken]

I get the hint ;D. Actually, there is a precedent for this in the NYC schools that has been going on for years, decades. Kids who are known behavior problems, constantly, consistently causing disruptions in class, hyperactive, talking and/or violent, but whose ability to learn is normal, have been placed in Special Education simply to weed them out of the classroom . Special Education standards are much lower and may not effect the schools overall performance.

Seems harsh? Well, don't forget that EVERY student has the right to a free education and an entire class can't and shouldn't be held back because of one or two bad apples. I'll return to this point.

Lar mentioned schools that perform poorly. He is correct. After a certain number of years wherein a schools total average scores decline below a certain point, the school comes in danger of coming under reveiw by the state. Called a SUR school, for School Under Reveiw, the State can come in and close the school down, literally, for a year (maybe more depending on restructuring, neighborhood needs etc.). During this time the teachers are reshuffled to new schools, Principals and Asst. Principals MAY be fired or sent to new schools (unfortunately the Principals usually have an "in" with the superintendents and manage to stay on even though they were in charge of the schools decline - go figure), and students are sent to alternate schools in the area or bussed to other areas. The school will then reopen with an all new staff and begin fresh but with state overseers to constantly keep the pressure on.

Anyway, back to my earlier point. Every child has the right to a free education. Cool. But we all can remember one or two kids who disrupted the class constantly and caused slowdowns, caused the teacher to tear his/her hair out, etc. These kids are not retarded and do not belong in Special Ed classes, but rather, I would label them "Incorrigible." These "Incorrigibles" :Pshould also have their own classes, with plenty of supervision - 1 adult to every 3 children - and this would encourage these Incorrigibles to learn, and may possibly propel them farther then a regular Ed. class.

As usual though, space and money and proper management would fail.

Counting the days and 6 inches in front of my face....

[abisai]

OK, let's keep this ball of wax rolling.


Ken, have you taught before NCLB? I thought magnet schools in NY basically did similar things, "magnetizing" lunatics to hell-schools. I also thought the idea behind this money-performance link was something like "well, they get money from us, why not use it as a reward structure while we are at it". But I do hope they fix things before eliminating entire schools, unless they rebuild and create jobs ASAP.

Yeah, the special education programs are hit hard I thought. I thought NYS went to Regents or nothing when us young men were in HS, stripping local schools from offering HS diploma that was not Regents. This means people like my mildly retarded cousin don't get a diploma, they get a GED. Not that she would understand the difference or really be affected, but an unnecessary slight. Did they ever resolve that?

For the record Ken: my father went by the grand and noble name of Ken when he taught too. I think from hearing him I would think he would agree the supprt structure is what is out of wack for teachers. He had more students than books. He had no books for some courses. He had problem children with improper parenting that needed beating sticks but he was afraid to ever even so much as touch a child lest risk a lawsuit. Even though these kids lacked parental supervision and craved the interests and affections of an adult. This ranged from working parents in NYC not being home or showing interests to children having children for parents. The whole gambit. A good family support for education was deteriorated MAYBE? I dunno. But even at Lisa's private elite school she taught at for three years she had small class rooms, not enough books or materials for her students, and had insanely undisciplined children she could never teach because they were enabled by their lazy parents to shirk having to work for anything. bastards. My point is just that the thing touches many classes and seems very popular and depressing. I vote more education as mandatory for everyone all the time every day. You want a license? Tell me how a carbine engine works. You want a job? Tell me how you calculated your taxes last year and where that money went.

"Only the educated are free."
-Epictetus