Revenge of the Sith (Discussion here)

[Rob G]

This thread is for people who have SEEN the movie. Dont read here unless you seen it. There will be many spoilers.

[Rob G]

Thanx Rob,

After seeing this movie numerous times I think it is GREAT GREAT GREAT. I can see how people could hate elements of this film but overall i can not see how anyone could say it was not great. It was.

My Favorite Parts:
Yoda throwing his sword
The montage of the jedis being killed ending with Yoda chopping heads. Classic scene for the ages.
Emperor speaking of his mentor Darth Plagus
Final duel of Vader and Obi
R2D2
The final scene with Emperor, Vader, and Grand Moff Tarkin staring out window of The first Super Star destroyer at the shell of what will be the death star,
Anakins finishing of Dooku
The scene were Padme is staring out window at jedi temple while Anakin stairs out window from jedi temple.
The opening space battle -fucking sick
And more then anything. Obi-wan, he is selfless, he is couragous, and he is a bad bad man.

What I hated:
The Love scenes. Worst dialogue. Poor acting. Especially the non-sensical scene about "So love had blinded you"--The worst ever
Hayden Christiensons performance of a character that could have been great.
Some under production on special effects.
Poor dialogue for alot of the film.
The special effects of the first 2 jedi that are slain by Emperor. That stunk.

What I was wondering was...
Did the emperor let Mace Windo get the upper hand or was Mace the baddest man ever.

[Ken]

As of last night, I have now seen this movie twice and I feel that I can now talk with some authority on the subject.

The movie was great. By far, the best of the prequels. I felt that almost every scene was important in the creation of Darth Vader. However, not every scene was great. Rob is 100% right in that the dialogue between Padme and Anakin is totally juvenile and innane.

"I'm so in love with you."
"NO, I'm so in love with YOU."

Please, someone give me a barf bag. However, in regards to the dialogue between Obi-wan and Anakin, there was some really deep stuff there. Obi-wan definitely treats Anakin with respect and brotherly love. He told Anakin how proud he was of him and that Anakin has never let him down, that Anakin is a far better Jedi than Obi-wan is. This should mean alot to Anakin because Obi-wan is the closest thing to a father he has ever had. To me, this made Anakin's betrayal even more evil. How could Anakin choose Palpatine over a campanion that has been with him through thick and thin almost his whole life? Obi-wan and Anakin have a history and shared experiences that should over-ride any temptation, but Anakin chooses Palpatine anyway. Fuck him. He deserves to have all his arms and legs cut off.

Hayden Christenson's acting wasn't great, and he just doesn't have the range to show the effects of the kind of emotional tug-of-war that Anakin was going through. However, I can't lay all the blame at his feet. The dialoge in the script seemed to be seriously flawed, so Lucas has to take some responsibility as well. Why couldn't Lucas get a real quality actor to play this part? It wasn't like the movie was going to flop or anything?

One thing that always bugged me from Attack of the Clones was, who the hell was Jedi Cipher Dias and why did he have the clone army created? That was never answered in Attack of the Clones. But now I guess that this Cipher Dias guy was really working for Palpatine, otherwise, how could Palpatine just take control of the clone army? I would venture to guess that "Order 66" was somehow built into the clones on a subliminal level? Or was there some other coersion going on that I missed?

I thought the light-saber battles were great, some of the best yet, especially between Vader and Obi-wan. When they are going at it, and they suddenly stop to throw the force at each other, and they're struggling to get the upper hand and they both go flying. I thought that was great. The whole battle on the volcano world was awesome. The NY Post reviewed the movie and hated the special effects on the volcano world but I thought they were great. Fuck the paper.

If you were Obi-wan, wouldn't you have given Vader mercy and put the light saber through his head?
How fuckin sick was it that after Vader had his legs and remaining arm cut off that the lava set him on fire?
Did Darth Sidious master the force enough to keep death at bay like his master Darth Plagus?
If so, then did Darth Sidious use his control of the force to keep Vader alive?

I remembered your question Rob about Mace Windu while I was watching that scene last night. Anakin doesn't actually come into the room until Mace Windu has already defeated Darth Sidious. I believe that Mace Windu was the baddest Jedi next to Yoda, and he was probably not much less powerful than Yoda.

Now check this shit out. I always like to check out the rest of the screen behind the actors in the movie, to try to catch little somethings that the makers may throw in. I believe that I saw the Millennium Falcon on Curasant.

Right after the opening sequence, after the space battle, Anakin, Obi wan and Palpatine are crash landing Greivous's ship. Then a new scene begins where you see a space port and Anakin's and Obi wan's ship is landing on the left side of the screen. If you look to the lower right hand side of the screen, the Millennium Falcon is pulling into another landing dock. It's small, but you can see it. If anyone goes to see this again, confirm or deny my theory here.

Was C3PO the only droid to have his memory wiped or did R2D2 have his memory wiped as well?

[Rob G]

Ken,

Thank you for making this a discussion. it was getting lonely in here.

First off, I agree with you the scenes between anykin and Obi wan. Those were great. That scene you mentioned where Obi tells him hes his brother and a better Jedi. That scene was like the purging of all the negatives in their relationship. Anakyn finally shows some appreciation and apoligises for his arrogance. Watch Obi wans facial expression in this scene. Great acting even when not actually speaking. Then Obi wan gives Anaykin the respect he always felt he deserved. I was like this is great. These guys finally got past that. But in the end it was all for naught.

One thing i thought was cooll that happened off screen was Obi wans attitude towards batttling Anakyn. At first Obi Wan does not want to fight Anakin and would prefer to face the all powerful emperor. But I think during the journey on Padme's ship Obi wan had time to take in what exactly Anakyn did. He killed Children. Slaughtered them. He became Sith. It was Sith that killed Quo-gon, it was a Sith who defeated Obi Wan twice. I think during the ride he came to the conclusion that Anakyn had to die. Thats why he draws his lightsaber first. Then it all culminates after hes defeated Anakin. All the emotion of betrayalpours out. He lets Anakyn burn because he deserves to burn. There was no mercy for the children. And then I thought it interesting that Obi Wan takes Anakins lightsaber. Now ofcourse he has to take the lightsaber so he can give it to luke later. But onsider this. In Attack of the clones Obi wan is constantly reinterating to Anakin to hold onto his lightsaber saying "This weapon is your life". Obi wan takes Anakins life both literally and metaphorically. And ofcourse the lightsaber is the weapon of Jedi, and Anakyn is no Jedi.

Who the hell was Jedi Master Cipher Dias?
Yes yes this bothered me also. Especially since they made it out like he was the leading member of the Jedi council. I believe they said though that the clones were actually ordered after Cipher Dias was assassinated (Presumedly by Jango Fett). In the timeline I think Dias is killed just before Phantom Menace. And the clones are ordered just after Phantom Menace. Its preatty cool if you consider all the moves the Emperor was making way back then. "Everything is proceeding as i have forseen"
So the emperor or Dooku actually ordered the clones in guise. Still this could have been addressed.

Concerning Windu as baddest man ever.
I dont here. Anakin literally busts in seconds after Emperor is disarmed. He was close enough for Emperor to feel his presense. Remember later Emperor feels Anakin is in trouble from light years away.
And the Emperor lightning is so powerful he almost dont even need the lightsaber. And anything is possible if he has forseen what will occur.
And it seems like the Emperor is all out of lightning and near death untill Anakin cuts off windus hand. Then he has "UNLIMITED POWER". The only problem is Windu is totally turning Emperor lightning back on him and totally deforming his body. I am really on the fence but am leaning toward Emperor let him do it.

Droid Memories:
C3PO is only one to have memory wiped. So R2D2 might know the whole deal. But R2 does have "Loose wires" and he might not have a complete processing personalty like C3PO. So he might not be smart enough to say "Hey Obi Wan, remember me from 20 years ago, i was there when you killed Vader, I know the deal".
Or R2 might actually be very smart and Keen too and might just be elected to keep information to himself.

I do no see the Millenium Falcon but will investiate further.

[Ken]

This movie is really bringing out the cinematic critic and literary analyst in all of us.

Rob, you are right-on when you talk about the relationship between Anakin and Obi wan. The things you mention that signal the death of Anakin, the death of Obi-wan's and Anakin's relationship, and the death of Anakin as Jedi, are perfect. Let's not forget though, that Obi-wan is witness to Anakin strangling his pregnant wife, and if Obi-wan had any doubts left about Anakin's conversion to the dark side, witnessing this event definitely convinced him that Anakin was truly Sith, truly Vader.

I had totally forgot that Obi-wan gives Luke the light saber later.

The whole Cipher Dias thing has been driving me crazy for years. When the clones completely turned against the Jedi and began murdering them though, it all fell into place. Someone, whoever it was, falsely representing the Jedi council, but in reality representing the Emperor, had that clone army commissioned. As I was watching the movie, I was putting the whole thing together. Darth Sidious had the clone army commissioned to fight for the Republic, to gain the trust of the Jedi, while at the same time, destroying the inferior droid army, just so the clone army could betray the Jedi at the right moment.

Then, Palpatine appointed Anakin to the Jedi council. This one move set so many things in motion; Anakin gets excited b/c he thinks he will become a master, the council’s outward exception that Anakin be placed on the council and subsequent decree that Anakin will not be given the rank of master, Anakin’s feeling of betrayal, the council’s decision to use Anakin as a spy, Anakin having doubts about the motives of the council, Anakin losing faith in the council, Palpatine informing Anakin that he knows the council has asked him to spy on Palpatine and that the Jedi council wants to take over the Senate...

Of course, this all comes to fruition, although the reasons that Palpatine presents to Anakin aren’t accurate. The Jedi realize that they have to take over the Senate until a peaceful transition is achieved, not because they want to rule.

This one seed of doubt placed in Anakin’s mind set into motion this series of events that brings Anakin over to the dark side. So when you say,

“Its pretty cool if you consider all the moves the Emperor was making way back then.”Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen."

Then the Emperor’s real power lay in his ability to scheme, plan and foresee the future. This is why I believe that Mace Windu was really very powerful and could have defeated the Emperor. Darth Sidious’s lightning was very powerful, but as evidenced in Attack of the Clones, even Obi-wan defeated Count Dooku’s lightning by channeling it through his light saber. Mace Windu did the same thing, to the detriment of Darth Sidious appearance. I find it hard to believe that Sidious would have wanted his appearance to change so dramatically, so hideously. Even Luke, as well as Vader survived, and defied the Emperor’s lightning, in Return of the Jedi.

I do buy into the idea that Sidious could have felt the presence of Anakin coming to save him. However, I still think that Sidious gave Mace Windu his best fight. Anakin was just his ace up his sleeve. Remember, Sidious true power was manipulation, and he gambled big time on Anakin. That gamble paid off when Anakin saved him from Windu. This is just my theory.

Concerning C3P0, 3PO’s memory was wiped so there would be no memory of where the children went? I can’t remember, was he there when that decision was made?

It was a pleasure to see Chewbacca, but wasn’t he kind of an after-thought?

After seeing these movies and getting a better understanding of the character’s, specifically Yoda, I can better understand how Luke became such a powerful Jedi, because Yoda was his master. I always got the impression that Luke was never trained enough, that he truly didn’t complete his training. But if he trained with Yoda, I could get passed that now, because even if he didn’t complete his training, whatever he learned under Yoda would be more powerful, or comprehensive, because of the power Yoda wielded.

OK, now for this Immaculate Conception. So did Darth Plagus conceive Anakin? What was the deal with that whole thing?

I could better swallow the concept of Qui-gon finding the key to immortality if he would have made one appearance in ghostly form to at least Yoda. But this does explain a lot.

What did you think about “Order 66?” Was this a subliminal plant, built into the clones, activated when they heard the order?

I think I have to see this movie at least one more time.

[Rigleader1]

I'll be brief, as I don't have the patience for this. I think everything in the plot happen too fast. Anakin’s turning mostly. I love the story and the action was great. I just think the chosen one should have been mentally more alert. It is good to know Luke was indeed a winy stupid little chip off the old block. I loved Obi-wan he ranks up there with my favorite characters. Maximus, William Wallace, Aragorn and Indy..for ability it's got to be Legolas, Achilles and Darth Maul..or darth bong..yeah(superdorky but this is the right place ) Mace Windo was one of the greatest Jedi lightsaber dualist second only to Yoda. I do however think that the emperor let him win proven by 1.The corny help me speech. 2. He fought Yoda to a draw in the Senate room. I really don't think he cared much about his appearance and his disfigurement was just blown off by the senate. Was the senate controlled by the force or were they just that dumb? Credibility aside I liked the movie and wish I could have saw it with you guys...everybody...

[Ken]

It seems to me that there is a distinction to be made between Jedi/Sith training with a light saber and their ability to weild the force. One doesn't necessarily have to do with the other. The ability to throw lightning, move objects with the mind, become immortal; these things are separate and apart from dueling with a light saber, which is technique and proficiency. Of course, ability to weild the force is definitely a part of dueling, as evidenced by Yoda's leaping and spinning style of attack.

The fight between the Emperor and Mace Windu was mostly a light saber duel, with Windu foiling the Emperor's lightning attack with his light saber. It was Windu's proficiency with the saber that won him that battle and gave him the edge over the Emperor's superior knowledge of the force.

I'm also basing my opinion of Mace Windu's power and proficiency on the Star Wars cartoons. He basically defeated General Greivous on his own and would have destroyed him if Greivous wasn't rescued. This cartoon was one of two meant to showcase Mace Windu's power. The other cartoon focused on Windu taking on almost a whole regiment of droids as well as a machine that could wipe out an entire city. Windu ultimately prevailed. These toons were made to round out the character and probably set the stage for the battle between the Emperor and Mace Windu.

[Rob G]

Ken wrote:
Then the Emperor’s real power lay in his ability to scheme, plan and foresee the future.

Yes indeedy.
Darth Sidious (In-Sidious)
Def. Working or spreading harmfully in a subtle or stealthy manner:

Darth Vader (In-Vader)
Def. To enter by force in order to conquer or pillage.

Yes, No one is a greater seer then Sidius. Which has lead me to be concerned that why did the Emperor not see Vader destroying him. He had seen everything else. And he tells Yoda "Darth Vader will become more powerful then either of us". So did the Emperor see it coming or nay. I think the Emperor is dead. I think the Emperor preatty much saw everything up until Luke does not turn. Why not, I do not know.

But this much i am certain of.
Sidiuos plan before all the movies is this.
(1)Become Chancelor of the republic.
(2)Divide and conquer. Split the republic in two. Use the trheat of war to constitiute an army that will become his ultimate enforcement.
(3)Ascend to supreme Emperor.

Pre Phantom Menace:
Sidious uses his powers to become Senator of Naboo.
Kills Cipher Diaz

Phantom menace:
He makes trade federation attack Naboo for the ultimate goal of having Queen Amidala provoke a vote of No confidence in Chancellor Valorum. In what ensues he will get a big sympathy vote because he is from Naboo. The whole movie is one big diversion thus the title Phantom Menace.

Right After Phantom Menace:
Turns Dooku and has Dooku make the order for the clone army

Attack of Clones (10 years later)
Has Count Dooku create the Sepertists to divide the repubublic. The goal here is to create the threat needed to justify the enaction of the Clone army.
Obi wan prematurely sets this in motion but its all the same. The Beauty of creating his own opposition is that anyoen who might potentially oppose him, his ways, or his politics will join the sepertists and will die when the time comes.

Revenge of Sith:
With his army in place and his supreme authority at hand he no longer needs Dooku or his Separatists he has them killed and all droids deactivated. The war is over and now he has everything


Concerning C3P0, 3PO’s memory was wiped so there would be no memory of where the children went? I can’t remember, was he there when that decision was made?

Yup, he was there.

I totally agree with about Yoda's training Justifying Luke gettting so good so quick. I also think that normal jedi training includes understanding before power. Thus they are not taiught new powers until they have reached enlightenment enough to weild them right. The Sith dont do this. they just make power mongers. Thats why Darth maul (an Apprentice) is so bad ass.
I think normal Jedi training is forgone for luke and he esentially recieves Sith like training.

Ken Wrote:
OK, now for this Immaculate Conception. So did Darth Plagus conceive Anakin? What was the deal with that whole thing?
I have many many thoguhts here. My final outcome is that Plagus did indeed make Anakin.

Ken Wrote:
I could better swallow the concept of Qui-gon finding the key to immortality if he would have made one appearance in ghostly form to at least Yoda. But this does explain a lot.

Yeah he should have appeared. But it was forshadowed a bit. In attack of the clones when Anakyn is killing sand people. Yoda is in prayer. You can hear Quo Gons voice saying "Anakin, Anakin, NOOOOOOO"/ So Yoda is already communing with Qui Gon.

Ken Wrote
What did you think about “Order 66?” Was this a subliminal plant, built into the clones, activated when they heard the order?

Yes, i think you might be right. The interesting thing is that when Emperor contacts the clones he does not appear as Chancelor but as Lord Sidius. and they follow his orders like they do it all the time. Definatly a subliminal plant me thinks.


---------------------------------------
MORE:
Wow,

So much here.

Consider this:
The man who really has the last laugh at the end of all of this is Darth Plagus. He is killed in his sleep by his apprentice who becomes the Emperor. But Plagus has his revenge as his creation (Anakyn) avenges him by killing the Emperor.

Could it have been Darth Plagus the wise who made the prediction of The One who will bring balance to the force. Balance meaning the balance of wielded power by an equal number of Jedi and Sith. I dont know.

Also I considered that the climax of eahc trilogy is brother against brother. Obi wan kills his brother in Anaykin. Brothers as they were both taught by Quogon. Vader kills his brother The Emperor. Brothers because they are both disciples of Plagus, One an apprentice, one created.

It would lead me to see symetry if episodes 7, 8, 9 dealing with the twin jedi sons of Han solo (one falling to the dark side) coming to conflict in the finale.

Also I see a total curruption in the line of Yoda Jedis,
Yoda to Dooku
Dooku to Qui Gon
Qui Gon to Obi Wan
Obi Wan to Vader

Both Dooku and Vader go Sith, while Qui Gon has no use for the Jedi teahcings. He seeks his own enlightnment through what he calls The Living Force.

Now concerning Darth Sidius:
So he begins as apprenice to Darth Plagus. Could Darth Sidius be a creation of Darth Plagus, born of MiniChlroians.
How bout Darth Maul???

He learns everything from his master then kills him in his sleep.

How long ago did this happen???
Sidius says its a Sith legend. Also he says Darth Plagus was so powerful. Well what power did he have.
This makes it seem like Plagus died along time ago. Now i have sen conflicting information on when the Sith ruled. in Phantom Menace they say the Sith have been extinct for a Millenium. Can Plagus be that old. Can the Emperor be that old.?

Its important to know when Darth Plagus was killed so as to establish who created Anakyn. Now Plagus is already dead by Phantom menace and Anaykin is like 9 years old.

My Guess:
I believe the Sith tell all Half truths
Decpetion is their way. And the best lies are based in truth.
I believe Sidius never learned to create life. If he had Luke would not have been that important and he would have already created a new lifeform to take the place of Vader. Thus Anakin was created by Plagus. Thus Plagus was killed nor more then 10 years prior to Phantom Menace.

I still have to work a lot of this out.

[Ken]

Rob wrote, "Which has lead me to be concerned that why did the Emperor not see Vader destroying him. He had seen everything else."

Theory:

Yoda has said several times that the Jedi were blinded by the dark side. I always took this to mean that the Jedi were so powerful and arrogant in their superiority, that they forgot that the dark side truly existed. Sure, intellectually, they knew it existed, but with no REAL challenge to their superiority, and no Sith in sight for a millennium, they just didn't believe the dark side could hurt them. So they just didn't pay attention to it.

With no real challenge to Darth Sidious and Vader in sight, on a Jedi or "Force" level, maybe Sidious was blinded by the "light" side?

Vader was prophesied to be more powerful than any Jedi or Sith. But did he ever achieve that level of power? He was never able to throw lightning. Was this because of all his mechanical parts and disfigurements? Dooku achieved that level of power, I would think that Vader would at least be as powerful as him.

Rob, you are the man. I totally forgot that scene when Yoda was in prayer while Anakin was killing sand people and we hear Qui gons voice yelling, "Anakin, Anakin, NOOOOOOOO!" That was the foreshadowing I was looking for.

I do believe all your ideas on the timelines, Sidious's long-range plans and your treatise on Darth Plagus. This Darth Plagus character is fascinating. How could a Sith Lord so powerful be walking around and the Jedi not be aware of him? Truly, they were blinded by the dark side.

Of course, I think we have broken these movies down to almost complete understanding, which is interesting because so much was left unsaid in the movies. Much is conjecture and putting seemingly unrelated events into order, figuring out timelines, truths, half-truths and lies. Maybe George Lucas wasn't as much of a fop as we thought hmmm?

[LORD BOOTH]

i see it or i did see it,the millennium falcon.most of the topics here have become too deep for my understanding but i do belive the millennium falcon made an apperance.

[Rob G]

Ken,

I subscibe to your idea that Emperor vison of vader was currupted by the "Light Side".

In the prequels Yoda says that boys future is uncertain. Their vision of what he will become is clouded by the dark side as Anakin will fall to the dark side.
Perhaps the Emperor's vision is cloudy by Anakyns return to the "Light Side". I can live with that.

I now will break done my interpetation of the Jedis stats. I see 3 categories. Light Saber cunning, Force power, and extra sensory abilities.

Yoda:
Cunning: 9
Force: 10
ES: 9

Emperor:
Cunning: 9
Force: 10
ES: 10

Dooku:
Cunning: 8
Force: 9
ES: 5???

Anakyn:
Cunning: 7
Force: 7
ES: 6???

Vader:
Cunning: 6
Force: 9 (though due to injury he cannot focus lightning)
ES: 7

Luke:
Cunning: 6
Force: 6
ES: 6

Obi Wan:
Cunning: 7
Force: 7
ES: 7

Old Ben Kenobi:
Cunning: 5
Force: 5
ES: 8

Quigon:
Cunning: 6
Force: 6
ES: 8

Darth Maul:
Cunning: 8
Force: 7
ES: 1

General Greivus:
Cunning: 6
Force: 4
ES: 1

Mace Windu:
Light Saber: 10
Force: 8
ES: 8

Ki adi Mundi:
Light Saber: 6
Force: 7
ES: 9

The three dudes the emperor kills immediatly have zero cunning

[abisai]

I will post then read and join in the ongoing conversation.

First off, the first half an hour blew me away. No one does space battle anywhere near the level of Lucasfilms. But nearly all the non-violent scenes involving Anakin/Darth were bad. I feel like they waited thirty years to make these things, only to blow it with picking some guy that cannot act to play the lead role. His love for the wife was never believable. They kept him shadowed during most his dramatic scenes, which could be mood, but came off more as hiding his inability to act. I felt like the motive to keep her alive was a weak one, that needed to be sold and was merely partially delivered. Even if you bought that, it did nothing to sell the wholesale reversal of his entire purpose in life. Maybe my view is skewed by only watching I & II in the theatres and never again, missing the cartoons, and coming in almost with a clean slate needing to be sold some things. I recalled the time in II he totally lost his temper. But losing a temper is different from changing your entire reason for living. And then almost killing off the person that set you on that path to boot.
Yoda was the shit, go yoda. I liked the Jimmy Smits character. I liked Wookie-ville or whatever it was. Shit was crazy violent from the get-go, with them showing the bodies flying in space after their ships exploded and so on. Severed limbs all over. Children being cut down and then they talk about killing children. I felt like the battle scenes totally dominated the movie, which made them a little repetitive as the movie went on instead of being climatic moments. Maybe that was because I was not sold on the drama setting up the sword fights - with the exception being the Yoda/Emperor scene. All that republic v. empire stuff is bananas, they only show like three planets and never the consequences of them living under either type of government. Sure there is the massive destructive powers by Darth in the end, but am I crazy to think a republic could attain the same ends for some purposes it seeks? The thing that sold the Emperor being evil was his rays and stories about necromancy, not whatever titles he held or political nuances he could muster. A deathstar could be built with or without his role as emperor. I'm just laying out my first thoughts after the movie, hope this does not offend the diehard fans out there.

It was cool the means they resolved the Leia/Luke relationship despite different parents and all that. I got to say from the moment they showed a lava planet you knew that Anakin was falling right in that shit in order to get in that black suit later on. It was cool the way that Obiwan cut his ass, after warning him not to even try. I wish I could have learned more about Grievous, but I am guessing that is my fault for not knowing the lore. I don't remember him from prior movies and he just appears in this apparently pivotal role all of a sudden it felt like and I don't get to know how he ended up so roboticly-enhanced.

Basically, I liked the opening and closing and was a little bored in between.

[abisai]

I guess kids love this movie. Oh yeah, the emperor cutting down two Jedi by just sticking them was bad. I felt jipped on that one. Yes, Obiwan dropped mad wisdom and played that role pretty cool. I did think he would not have killed Vader off as he was burning to death, it did however bug me that he just plain stopped burning for some reason. I thought Darth Sidious's necromancy was refering to Grievous and assumed it played a role with Vader, but I don't know the lore and hope to read an answer her to that. WOW, he gave that light saber to Luke later? That is dope and I like that insight about the quote about it being a Jedi's life. I thought the emperor was baiting Anakin when he was on his back, that he let the black Jedi get in his ass a little to make for a scenerio he thought would work out as it did. I really thought that he was perhaps giving Vader those visions and wondered if the others had considered this when conferring with Anakin about them and what they meant, but no one did. Does mind power exist in the force? "I could better swallow the concept of Qui-gon finding the key to immortality if he would have made one appearance in ghostly form to at least Yoda." YES!! ME TOO!! "I think we have broken these movies down to almost complete understanding, which is interesting because so much was left unsaid in the movies." This was a problem I had with it, because there is so much going on and I am a very casual fan of the matter.

[Rob G]

Hell yeah,
DKB is in on this shit. I really was anticipating your words buck. As you are not a mindless STAR WARS disciple but still an avid movie fan and with vast insight.

I guess kids love this shit,
YES WE DO.

No matter what i think the film was a...
Spectacular Spectacle worthy of Speculation

Concerning Grievous:
To me it seems that Greivus only literary purpose was to establish the Emperors new interest in Sith Cybornetics. Foreshadowing our eventual Vader. In reality it definatly appears that Lucas simply wrote too much material for one film. So cuts had to be made. Thus Grievus gets virtually no developement which in turn makes his demise less dramatic. However in the scheme of things Greivus wasn't shit and rightfully so. He was an apprentice and went up against a full on jedi master bad ass in Obi wan.
I think the Lucas people realized they had underdeveloped Greivus and thats why the charcter was given to the producers of THE CLONE WARS to develope. Fine by me. The only problem is the random appearance of new Sith bad asses. Maul comes out of no where, Dooku comes out of no where, and Greivus comes out of no where. Then in the 20 years that follow there just Vader.

Here is everything I know about Grievus:
Organic Lifeform encased into a robotic body. Apprentice to count to Dooku. Badest hand to hand Jedi killer ever. Responisble for the death of many jedis. General of the Droid army (specifically the Techounion army as opposed to the trade federation battle driods).

Concerning the non appearnace of Qui Gon:
After Phantom Menace Liam Neeson said he would never do another star wars or any full on special effects film. He is a method stage actor who has no use for green screens and interaction with things that are not there. Actuallu Terrance Stamp (Chancelor Valorum from Phantom Menace aka General Zod) said the same thing. Lucas did his best to manage this situation using a sound bite that had been recorded in phantom menace and placing it in Attack of the Clones.

There still some inconsistancies however as Yoda and Obi wnas bodies disappear when they die but neither Qui gon nor Vader do.

Concerning the 2 Jedis the emperor just cuts down:
Yeah that did suck. The 4 Jedis that come for the empreror are
(1) Mace Windu (sam L jackson)
(2)Kit fisto (Green dude with dreads)
(3)Saesee Tin (Dude with horns)
(4)Eoth Koth (Spanish dude)
Koth and Tin are cut down immediatly. Now even in the lucas lore Tin and Fisto are total badasses. I dont see them going down SOOOO fast. But whatever.

Concerning "So much shit going on"
for real, this movie could have been its own trilogy. The good part is the action packed and story packed movie is highly rewatchable. I truly believe that if a real actor could have played Anakyn we could have really had something.

I belive the intention of the Anakyn story was for the audience to fall in love with him, then to follow his journey as he struggles. And finally to be betrayed when he turns evil. Christensons betrayal is so lame that you never like him. You dont care that he turns evil and am fully rooting for Obi wan to off the basterd. Ewan Mcgregor does a great job displaying his pain but in truth hes the onyl person in the film or the audience that really gives a shit about Anakyn. oh well.

Still when all is said and done Lucas did a hell of a job. Stay tuned for the TV show.

[abisai]

Q: I felt like both Vader and Windu were going to arrest their captives until they suddenly changed their minds. One side we hear the Emperor giving Vader the kill order for Christopher Lee (who did a good job at trotting out and accepting his shamelssly small role). One the other hand, it was not until Vader entered the room that the "I am going to end this here" line is delivered. I thought that the Emperor played a mind-fuck role in both cases. Can't the force do that? Can't it also allow him to give Anakyn nightmares and mess with his head? I was getting that vibe, but I don't know any better.

Q @ Greiv: if he is an organic lifeform, how does dude walk through space across the ship surface. Does the force play any protective role against the infinite vaccuum of space?? ?? I also wondered how the planet accepted the crash landing of that huge ship instead of blowing it up. I can chalk that up to a distress signal sent or something like that though.

That impressed me to hear Liam Nissum say that about special effects. I tend to agree with that mindset. But again, if you are waiting 30 years to make these movies, can't you get the right damn actors for the parts you need? It's not like they sell these on star power in the least.

I did not see the need to show the slayings of the Jedi kids and the "bad" politicians by Vader. They could have been referred to instead of being the feature scenes. Like Obiwan crying later would have been enough, or the scene where Vader gets his kill command and cries afterwards would have been enough. For that matter, I did not appreciate or understand why the politicians were killed off. Seemed like the Emperor saved their lives before and could have used them as seeds going forward. Why bother saving their lives in the first place? I guess the political stuff was all lost on me.